Thomas P.M. Barnett :: Weblog

can you please exapnd on this a little?

Personally i view art as predating religion as ontology of complex world
(in so far as evidence is concerned) analysis of technique as well as material used even in early cave paintings implies scientific analysis as well as transmission.

As globalization spreads and deepens art will have more to say :)

The logic of this last post escapes me. Unless what is being discussed is the necessity that mired third-world societies really do need to be inculcated with a western religious tradition as a foundational philosophic framework from which to bridge them to first world science-based ontologies. While this argument could be made, and easily, there is a public relations danger in suggesting such a thing.

Can you clarify?

Hitchens doesn't have problem with religion, only God.

Religion is a movement, God is a potential. God is force, religion is a displacement. I think Hitchens just doesn't believe in the potential and may feel the force is destructive. However, it would appear he doesn't have a problem with displacement of any kind as he bounces from left to right.

i don't think Hitchens would disagree, except to change "need for religion" to "desire for religion".

but you're both wrong, since the more integrated, more connected (i.e. more dynamic and complex) societies tend to be the least religious. it's the closed societies which tend towards religious fanaticism; not the other way 'round.

"Thus, as globalization spreads and deepens, the need for religion increases."

Yes, just like economic integration has done wonders for European religiousity :)

No, I think that statement is just one side of the coin that is globalization. Every newly minted fundamentalist is the father or grandfather of a secularist.

We all know Maslow's Pyramid. As basic physical needs are met self actualization becomes the next big thing.
In some cases that's Self actualization. And its really not about religion so much as spirituality, hence the rising number of Buddhists among the well-to-do.
As to art, it has always been a metaphysical experience; even an atheist artist will tell you that painting, music, dance, etc all takes them to another plane.
As I see it, Spirituality, Religion and Fundamentalism have overlapping relationships, but are each distinct categories.

Zenpundit wrote: "Every newly minted fundamentalist is the father or grandfather of a secularist." I like that. I agree that that is the general drift of evolution. =)

zp: stipulated. the problem is, for anti-fundamentalists, the fundamentalists seem to keep converting more fundamentalists :-)

Zen: I suspect the extreme reverse is also partially true. "Every newly minted atheist is the father or grandfather of a fundamentalist." I say partially because a lot of the atheists I've known have been less than keen on reproducing.

Tom: The third part should read "Thus, as globalization spreads and deepens, the need for BETTER religions increases."--with quality in this case hinging on its effect on the adherents' adaptability to change.

OK. An astute, deft and very grounded psychological reading of our situation of globalization and its link to technology is offered in volume 2 of a collection of the papers of Wolfgang Giegerich called Technology and the Soul: from the Nuclear Bomb to the World Wide Web:

http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-9781882670437-0

It is very broad in scope and alarming in its stringent logic and refined articulation of the sublation process that we now must face.

People have to stop equating religion and spiritualism with fundamentalism, which is on the decline globally. What is rising is the more evangelical faith.

And European examples work only for Western Europe and only for the odd historical period called the Cold War and post-Cold War. Religion is coming back to that neck of the woods--imported.

You have to stop seeking your futurism in Europe's "super state." It's development trails our own by about 200 years.

Hi guys,

Sean: Do we keep stats on fundamentalists who mellow?

It was typical in 19th century America to see guys who started as poor, young, men in firey, backwoods, Baptist congregations "move up" as they aged and became more prosperous to join Presbyterian, Methodist and ( finally) Episcopalian churches. I think we see some of that in Muslim countries with their " Pious middle" who want respectability and social order with their religious values, not violent radicalism and "liberal" Muslims who tend to be quite well to do and connected to international business.

Michael: I think that you are right, both dynamics are unfolding simultaneously - where society ultimately trends in the aggegate hinges on a number of variables

TB -

not just Europe, but religious moderation has occurred/is occurring all over Asia as standards of living increase. think religion is on the uptick in India? not any sort of traditional version of it, thank God.

the places with little growth or greatly disproportionate distributions of growth are the ones with the highest levels of religiousity, in both number of practitioners and their levels of fervor.